Interview With Ralph Tyler

NO LIMIT TO THE POSSIBILITIES 

Six months before Ralph Tyler's death, Ms. Hiatt talked with him about the big questions -- those having to do with education, learning, and the meaning of life.

In August 1993 I interviewed Ralph Tyler, professor emeritus and former dean of education at the University of Chicago. We had known each other since the early 1970s, when I was at UCLA studying under a former student of Tyler's, John Goodlad. Tyler and I maintained a professional friendship through the years. I wanted the opportunity to record Tyler's reflections on life, education, and his career. At the time of the interview, Tyler had recently entered St. Paul's Health Care Center in San Diego. He died on 18 February 1994.

DBH: Even after your formal retirement you always kept up a strenuous schedule. What are you doing during this forced period of retirement?

Tyler: I had wanted to "die with my boots on." This will not be the case. However, even though I find it difficult to read, now that my vision is poor, and difficult to hear, I still continue to work. Each day I recall and reflect upon past events and assign new meaning to them.

In the past I always reflected upon each day before I went to sleep. I would assess what I had learned during the day. Since I nap a lot more these days, I am doing much more reflecting!

DBH: During these periods of reflection, I assume you are searching for answers to the important questions. Please share your thoughts on that big question, What is the purpose of life?

Tyler: The purpose of life is learning. When one ceases to learn, one ceases to live life to its fullest. The biological basis of man has changed little since the cave days. However, each generation creates new ideas and elaborates on those ideas which have previously existed. We must always remember that it is man who drives ideas, not ideas which drive man. Man is in control, and his learning is a lifelong experience. His learning occurs through reflection on direct experiences.

Some people become concerned when a plan or idea seems to lead to a catastrophe. Man learns from both failures and successes. We must be reminded that each apparent catastrophe has a positive outcome. For example, when forest fires occur, the result of the burning is an opportunity for new growth in the forest.

DBH: In the scheme of lifelong learning, what is the purpose of schools?

Tyler: The school is composed of a body of teachers who value scholarship. The school's role is to help children -and later, adults --discover scholarly activity. It was Jefferson's aim for public schooling to move children from life in which beliefs were based on local folklore to life in which beliefs were based on understanding ideas that connected the present to the past, ideas that explained relationships among phenomena, knowledge of the human condition, and the like.

I value the work of schools, both public and private, as a means of fostering the learning of every individual. The focus of schools should be on serving the best interests of each child rather than on serving some leader's agenda. Schools in America should seek to develop problem-solving citizens who can actively engage in the work of a democratic society.

DBH: You have devoted significant effort to evaluation. What is your view on the current press for national testing?

Tyler: Tests provide marginal evidence of learning. If policy makers are considering national testing, they should think about the purpose of it. If tests are considered a panacea for concerns about what is happening within public schools, their results will present a narrow gauge of a child's learning. For example, test scores do not explain whether a student has been in school six years or six months.

America is still improving in its educational attainment. We have moved from considering schooling as elementary education to recognizing lifelong educational opportunities. Few children attended high school at the turn of the century. Now we are concerned about the youths who do not graduate from high school and label them "at risk." We are less at risk in our educational attainment than we have ever been. The youths who are our present concern belong to the same groups we were concerned about in the past -the groups of incoming immigrants who have had little or no schooling. We should focus our efforts on meeting the educational needs of these youths rather than on gathering meaningless test scores from them and crying, "Woe is me."

Real learning about life and its meaning occurs at the local school level and within each individual child. Therefore, if we are arguing for national testing or national assessment of children's learning, could we not argue that we should assess all of a child's learning -- including the child's knowledge of his family life? Is this something that government has an ethical right to assess?

DBH: Please discuss your views on how children learn.

Tyler: Children learn through exploration. They construct their knowledge through direct experience. We must consider how to expand their space and opportunities for learning. Dewey would muse that many teachers would simply tell children, "This is what the world is like." Instead, Dewey advocated that teachers should encourage children to become actively engaged in discovering what the world is like.

For example, you might consider my learnings from the high school skunk experience. Back in the early 1900s we youths earned extra money through trapping animals along Midwest rivers and selling their skins. One day I trapped a skunk. I was interested to know how skunks made that awful smell, so I extracted the juice from its glands. As I was returning home with this juice, I saw a bucket of paint that was being used to redo the school radiators. I disliked attending school and thought of a way that school might be canceled. I poured the skunk juice into the paint bucket, knowing that the painter would continue with his painting.

When the first cold day arrived and the school's heat was turned on, the whole school learned of my deed. According to my plan, school was canceled for the day. However, I was called on to accept responsibility for my prank. My dad (a local minister) and I were asked to meet with the principal. I informed the principal that school was for sissies and that I was getting nothing out of attending school. I thought that I should be out working and earning money. After much serious discussion, the principal and my father convinced me that I should continue school. However, both thought that I had the energy and talent to work and attend school. So I went to school part time and then worked a full day at the local creamery.

During that set of experiences, I learned about accepting responsibility for my actions, creating options, and the value of going to school. That event was a turning point in my life. I thank my father and the principal for their understanding and wisdom.

DBH: Based on that experience, how do you believe one should deal with other people?

Tyler: There are two ways to deal with people -- to make them dependent or independent. Independence helps people accept responsibility for their choices and decisions. I think that people should be self-directing so that they do not become serfs for one or two leaders. People require skills for independent living in order to act responsibly in a democratic society. One of the writings which best explains how children should be educated for democratic action is Mortimer Adler's Paideia Proposal

DBH: There have been many recent reports, including research by your former doctoral student John Goodlad, on the education of teachers. What should be included in educating new teachers?

Tyler: Some questions that we need to address are: Do we want self-directing professionals? What experiences will make them self-directing? How can we organize experiences so that we promote the self-directed learner? How can we determine that we have accomplished what we set out to achieve?

Teachers need to understand that people everywhere have certain basic needs for life and learning and that classroom management means capitalizing on meeting those needs. Teacher education is not bestowed by faculty lectures but occurs through participating in active dialogue and dealing with real problems. Student teachers should be involved in solving classroom problems and then reflecting on the meaning of those problems. Teaching is a complex process that requires continual learning. At present teacher education is only a beginning stage in the development of a master teacher. Teachers should be learning throughout their professional lives.

DBH: What is the task of the education faculty at institutions of higher education?

Tyler: The task of the education faculty in higher education is to foster self-directing professionals, whether they be teachers, counselors, or principals. Self-directed learners must have problem-solving skills in order to work with other faculty members, parents, and the community, as well as with the children. Also, institutions should address the question, What is the purpose of the profession? At your institution, I observed that the university worked toward the aim of societal improvement. Such an aim provides incoming professionals with a sense of purpose and mission beyond simply earning a living.

DBH: What do you consider to be some serious national educational concerns?

Tyler: Educational problems are local, not national. They should be addressed at the local level by the individuals who directly understand the problem. The more distant from the seat of responsibility, the less attuned people are to the solution of actual problems. In my life's experiences, I have never found a problem that could not be solved if everyone at hand worked on the solution together. Simply expending federal money to solve problems in general does not solve specific local problems. Most specific problems can be solved without such money. It is far better to solve a problem with resources that are readily available than to depend on a distant source.

For example, in the Massachusetts Coalition for School Improvement, which is made up of 93 schools from 39 school districts, each school seeks to address a local problem. These schools seek advice from one another, but the primary work is at the local school, carried out by the people working at that site. Consultants can only provide insights or raise pertinent questions; they are not able to come in and solve a problem singlehandedly and permanently. I have found in my work with schools and curriculum that my task is simply to help others identify the problem and examine options for solving that problem.

DBH: America has relied heavily on advancing through the use of technology. How do you view the role of technology in the educational process?

Tyler: Americans expect impossible things from new technology. The question that should be raised is how technology can fit into problem solving. At the present time, Americans are infatuated with the computer and telecommunications. In the 1920s, schools were given typewriters. It was the intent that these typewriters would replace handwriting in the classroom. As you can surmise, the noise of these machines irritated teachers and children. Typewriters were soon relegated to special classrooms. In the 1950s schools were presented with televisions in the hope that these machines would replace the teacher. However, televisions simply present information. Educators did not address the question of what the students were learning during the time they spent viewing television programs.

Now the schools have been given computers. These machines have promise if educators address how these gifts can be used by learners to solve real problems in their lives. If students are required simply to master the mechanics of the machine or to view drill-and-practice programs, the use of computers will remain minimal in most classrooms. Information is what is put into the computer, but knowledge is how one uses that information. It is through the students' active use of information stored in the computer that they can solve problems and learn.

DBH: How do you feel about aging?

Tyler: Aging is watching one's body get less capable with each passing day. I find that I can do less and less each day. I know that my days are numbered and dwindling. I find myself thinking more about the past and less about the present. The people at St. Paul's Health Care Center are kind. I like the people here.

DBH: You have done so many things in your life. To what do you attribute your ability to accomplish so much?

Tyler: I have been fortunate in having seemingly boundless energy. In my youth, this energy seemed to create problems for me. However, with the assistance of my parents and other mentors, my energy was directed toward more meaningful pursuits than playing pranks on teachers and other unsuspecting adults.

DBH: As you reflect on the past, what do you think has given your life meaning?

Tyler: My work in education has given my life much meaning. I never had a hobby or participated in a sport during my adult years. Instead, each day presented itself with new and interesting challenges. I awoke each morning eager to meet these challenges. Then each evening before bed I reflected on the activities of the day.

DBH: Looking back, many of us marvel at your diverse accomplishments. What do you consider to be the most important professional work you did?

Tyler: I found that working with other professionals and helping them expand their horizons was the most personally rewarding. I was able to meet and talk with people who were interested in their work in education and wanted to solve current problems. Working with others brought meaning to my life.

One of my greatest joys in recent years came when I met the son of one of my first high school students. My former student was a large person of Native American descent who played football at our high school in Pierre, South Dakota. He questioned why he had to learn anything in my physics class. This young man felt that football was the purpose of high school. He and his friends confronted me after school one day, asserting that they were going to beat me up if he did not pass a test so that he could stay on the high school football team. I was undaunted, recalling my own rebellious high school days, and informed them that he needed to learn physics whether he passed this test or not. I asserted that it would only harm them if they beat me up. I suggested that he work with me to set up the laboratory experiments so that he would understand the physics and pass the test. And so we did just that and became fast friends. After all, I was only 19, and he was simply a little younger.

His son looked for me at a recent AERA meeting to share with me how often his father spoke about me and in particular how I encouraged his father to complete high school.

DBH: That story seems to epitomize the value you place on education for every segment of society.

Tyler: My work has been with many groups of individuals -- I've taught in public schools, private schools, schools for doctors and lawyers; I've been involved in continuing education for the military, businesses, the government, and so on. Each group and each individual is enhanced through participating in educational experiences which expand understanding. As I recall from John Dewey, students are limited not by their intellects but by the experiences that expand their intellects. It is the function of educators to provide appropriate learning experiences that expand the horizons of each student. There is yet no limit to the possibilities that appropriate learning experiences can provide to each and every member of society. I have great faith in the future and in the work of educators.

PS: Copyright belongs to Phi Kappa. But I thought that, they want to be read it by everyone. So it is here..